As someone who:

1. Has been approached alone in an elevator for uncomfortable things by a man who felt it was his right

2. A woman who has been very alone in a very large convention

3. A woman who has been hit on by very drunk men at a bar and felt the need to compulsively be protective of where she was sleeping (in the hotel) by handing the check BACK TO THE WAITRESS before I left.

That makes me distinctly uncomfortable because it doesn't take into account ALL OF SOCIETY. *glares at it*

I live 2 hours from hotlanta, and I have never had a problem at Dragon. You do know that a gay celebration gay pride is going on the same time Dragon con is going on and that explanes a lot with some of the outfits.

I feel a definite urge to punch some people in the crotch.

ah jesus h. christ.

because, you know, it can't possibly be intimidating or a huge pressure on a woman when a gang of drunk or not-drunk men and women descend on her and demand (no matter how polite the demand) to touch her breasts.

NO! A GUY wouldn't feel intimidated by that, so a woman has no right to be intimidated!

and OF COURSE all men would completely understand that this is completely "voluntary" (ref: above) and wouldn't decend to demanding or just doing it with or without the consent of the owner of such breasts.,

And OF COURSE It wasn't that she was a piece of meat to be felt up. NO! She's not being felt up AT ALL! By complete, total and random strangers.

I want to read the comments and know he's being skewered. But I won't because I also know he's NOT being skewered, that there are guys pounding each other on the back and exhaulting in the "open source boob project" becasue all women are just there for them to use.

I think I'm going to be sick.

This is one of those very strange instances where worlds I never thought would collide, do collide.

ConFusion is the one Con we go to every year without fail. While I don't know all of the attendees each year, for the most part, ConFusion is pretty small, at least in comparison to Dragon and World, and IME the majority of the attendees have been going to ConFusion together for decades and more (Joe's parents were/are members of the group that started this particular Con). So, it is, for a lot of people, attending a Con with a large group of friends, sort of like the b.org F2F.

I was asked, hell, I might have seen the boob-touching and presented my own two beauties for some touching (then again, I have no boundary issues with my breasts. I'm only going to have them for about another 20 years and then The Big C will take them and I'll get new ones. My boob-views for my own boobs are very skewed in this fashion.). I can say though, that the way in which others were approached, was sort of respectful. I say sort-of because, if you don't like your boobs being touched by random people, then it is in no way respectful. My friend J declined the grope and they nodded, shook her hand, and then just chatted at us. In a way that if you have close male friends who occasionally touch your boob or boobs is. But, I have an odd circle of friends and like I said, a very skewed view of boob-touching, so I'm the anomaly here.

Now - as I say all that, I am not attempting to say that your feelings of not wanting to be groped or touched is in any way invalid or silly or anything other than your feelings that you have every right to have (which I hope doesn't come off as my giving permission to have those feelings. Gah. I suck at this.)

Anyway, I understand why you feel the way you do and I empathize. But I wanted to share what I saw and experienced.

(Also, my icon is an attempt at ironic icon-ocy, not insult.)

Edited at 2008-04-22 03:40 pm (UTC)

This isn't about people being open with their wishes or people being open with their bodies, because both of those things can be incredibly positive. This is just...asinine.

1. Yes, yes, a hundred times yes about the way a lot of women (or men, for that matter) would be afraid of the approach, afraid of the question, afraid to say no.

2. How stupid would somebody have to be to not understand #1?

3. Despite it all, I feel incredible sadness for men who were apparently so traumatized as teenagers, so overwhelmed by a society that told them that they were nothing as sexual beings, that they feel they can only be whole if they get a pair of strangers' boobs in their hands. My sadness for them, however, doesn't equal approval for their chosen method of 'therapy.'

Edited at 2008-04-22 03:58 pm (UTC)

Sometimes you american people, you amaze me. In France, I could *sue* a guy who's asking to touch my breast. In a good day I would shoot him an icy stare, in a bad day I would punch his nose and some other part of his anatomy as well.

among the MANY things that are KILLING ME DED here:

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?" And lo, we showed them how beautiful their bodies were without turning it into something tawdry.

I...what? Does this yutz really not see how that is not a PROBLEM? "ARE THEY GOOD ENOUGH TO BE TOUCHED?" I. DOES HE NOT SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE I OMGWTFBBQ. *hed asplode*

You know, there was a time in my life when I would have thought this was a great thing.

But then I learned. I learned what male privilege is. I learned that the playing field is not equal. I learned that saying "no" is harder for women. I learned that saying "no" doesn't necessarily result in respect for a woman's wishes. I learned that my body is *mine*, but that the world at large doesn't agree.

My guess is that the people behind this are either very young, or ex-hippies. That does not excuse it, of course. These people need to be slapped with a fish.

I am so furious that I really do want to commit physical violence -- and the worst part is I want to commit it against the *women in his thread who don't see why this is a problem*. And who keep saying things like "well, maybe *for you*...." to the women who point out why they are against it and don't think it's funny. And who don't realize why they are, in fact, yes, yes you are, part of the problem.

I agree with shrift re: crotch-punching, but now I've coupled it with boob-punching. Of course, "boob" takes on more than one meaning here. But the women who are fine with this, and think it's hilarious, and can't see the bigger picture need to be *shown* the bigger picture, and since I'm incapable of doing that, I just want to punch them in the boobs.

They say education is the way to go in situations like these, but the short-term solution of inflicting quick and efficient physical harm would make me *feel* better. Like Aeryn Sun and shooting things.

Perhaps we need an interactive button -- an "I get it: Y/N?" button which, if it lights up "N", immediately turns into a "punch in the crotch/boobs: Y/N?" button. Followed by me punching everyone in either the crotch or the boobs.

Edited at 2008-04-22 04:33 pm (UTC)

The cons I go to have always been places where I felt extremely comfortable in my body, in a way I don't in most of the rest of my life around people.

One of the last cons I went to, there were more males than usual, and afterwards one of them posted about the sizes of the women there, in a joking way, I suppose, but it immediately made me self-conscious about that con in a way I hadn't been, before. And things like this? Would make me not go to the con in question anymore, ever.

I found that post kind of nauseating, as well, because the guy totally doesn't get why this might be anything but beautiful! And open! And how just having some women agree to it doesn't make it any more acceptable.

Okay, now that I've read a bunch of links: what this reads like to me is... it's very Geek. In the sense that it's a way to short-cut the usual process. Geekboy thinks, "I want to get my hands on women's boobies, but it's so hard! I have to make nice with them, and what if they don't like my mullet and my XKCD t-shirt? What if they want me to buy them dinner? They like such girly things, and I can't talk to them that easily, they make me awkward!"

But this! This is a MACRO for geekboys. No dating required, barely any conversation necessary--just a simple yes/no, and if he gets shot down he can just chalk it up to that one being a prude. AND it puts the burden on the women: if they don't participate, they're not sexually healthy! It's not Geekboy's fault, it's hers! Win-win!

This is just.... GAH!

My brain hurts.

This, coming after reports from Romantic Times of one or more of the Ellora's Cavemen being over-touchy of the women attending, is extremely disturbing.

I've not attended a large SF/F con in a long time (except for World Fantasy last year, but that was mostly pros, so I think a different mix). I hope that this isn't indicative of the whole. :(

I find it quite unsettling that so many women don't see this as wrong, and that validation by some Neanderthal who wants to feel up only the "good" boobs is not only unsettling but demeaning.

*shakes head*

Well that certainly is creepy and disturbing.

In a complete topic change, I am pretty you that it was you who rec'd some allergy eyedrops elsewhere and I never thanked you. THANK YOU! They are an excellent weapon in the battle against treesex. (Wow, was this random if it wasn't you. But I am mostly sure it was your rec.)

I read your comment and a whole bunch of others and wanted to thank you for the breath of sanity.

I noticed, reading the OP, how it was all a great, beautiful experience...but I didn't see anyone asking/offering to let them grope the guys. (I didn't read through the comment; I had a hard enough time reading the post.)

I don't...have words to describe how overwhelmingly WRONG that whole concept feels. And that there were women endorsing it, and promoting it. I sure as hell don't need to have strangers groping me -- anywhere! -- to feel beautiful and/or sexual. I just. Grrr.